Jullien Gordon on What It Means to Be a Leader

In Chapter 11 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon answers "What Does It Mean to Be a Leader in What You Do?"   Gordon notes the importance of having original thoughts and following to lead.  This gets him in a place where he can identify opportunities in his field and use his iteration process to release products and services that put him in a leadership position.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: What does it mean to be a leader in what you do?

Jullien Gordon: I think being a leader means having original thoughts, not just following the steps or the path that was currently laid out for you by, perhaps the original pioneer in your space. And so I like the notion of not following the leader but following to lead. At some point, the leader in your space is going to transition, exit, or go in a different direction and you have to say, “okay, I’ve been following and learning for this long from this person, but what original, authentic thoughts are coming through me that I need to bring into the world and bring forth?” So it really means being you at the end of the day because nobody can be you better than you, and while you may have someone who guides you for quite some time, ultimately you have to find out what is your authentic message and voice, and I think that’s what makes you a leader in whatever space it is you choose to operate in.

Erik Michielsen: What role does the trial and error process play in that leadership development?

Jullien Gordon: My whole life has been a journey of failing forward. I’ve made a lot of mistakes from losing amazing team members to unsuccessful online product launches to errors in written documents and published documents, and I constantly learn from that. I’m more of a get-it-done than a perfectionist, I used to be a perfectionist but now I’m more about getting it done and you can tell from my Good Excuse Goals book that it’s about getting the product out and then iterating from there, and getting it at least 80-90% right but not trying to get it 100% right and so. I recognize the consequences of moving in that way. But for me, even with mistakes and errors along my journey, my life has continued to impact other people’s lives. Whereas if I was trying to make things perfect, I still may be in cubby hole somewhere trying to make things perfect before I show it to the world, and my 80-90% right things have been out in the world and people have found them valuable and been inspired by them. And of course I need to close the gap over time but that’s the process for iteration for me.

Jullien Gordon on Consequences of Starting a Business With Friends

In Chapter 12 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon answers "What Challenges Did You Face Going Into Business With Friends and What Did the Experience Teach You?"  Gordon shares lessons learned from going into a business partnership with a friend and having it not work out as planned.  He details his expectations and how they contrasted with results and how they impacted the business and friendship.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: What challenges did you face going into business with friends and what did the experience teach you?

Jullien Gordon: I’m still processing that. This year, at the beginning of this year, I started a partnership with a friend and six months in, we realized that it wasn’t working out. Some of the challenges were that I was financing the business at the time, so he was coming on as a partner, and without necessarily bringing in equity to the table. And so there— I already felt like there was some unevenness though we were both committing the same amount of time and energy, with me being the primary investor into the new partnership that felt like there was an imbalance. And so if I could do it all over again, I would do it in such a way where it’s equally financed by both partners.

Second thing is that you tend to lose your friendship, tend to lose your friendship, because when you see each other, all the conversations are about the business and how do we grow the business, how do we grow the business, and we were able to carve out some friend-time. “We’re not talking about work, we’re just gonna go hang out and have fun together.” But that time became less and less and less, especially as the business got strapped. It’s like, no, we don’t have time to have fun. We need to grow the business.

Another thing that occurred was distance, the partnership started off being a long-distance partnership, and ultimately we ended up in the same city, but distance was a huge detractor from the partnership. What I know from working on larger teams before is that I vibe off the energy of another person, just like I told you about the energy in the room when I’m leading a training. And with that person being distant and you two working virtually, that added benefit of having that person at your back and you both going hard and being accountable to each other, it wasn’t there. And so I missed out on that even though there was a quote-unquote: partnership.

Our friendship is not in a good place right now. It sucks. And I don’t think it has to be that way for all partnerships. Wish I could do it over again, but those are lessons I’m learning and I’m still processing what went wrong as well as what went right.

Jullien Gordon on How to Build Career Coaching Conversation Skiils

In Chapter 13 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon answers "How Are Your Coaching Skills Improving as You Build Experience?"  Gordon learns ways to ask someone questions to understand where they are coming from.  He learns different ways to improve the questions he asks and the coaching conversation - and outcome - that results.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: How are your coaching skills improving as you build experience?

Jullien Gordon: So my coaching skills, they come from my personal journey, but before anything, rather than coaching from my experience, I actually coach from my listening. So I actually focus on listening to the individual first. What I found is that oftentimes, especially when you think about self-help books and things of that nature, a lot of times when you read those books and then we try to apply somebody else’s framework or definition of success to our life, it doesn’t work out, because that’s theirs. And so when I coach, I don’t necessarily just take my experiences and translate them to the individual and say, “Here, do this,” instead, I start with deep listening and really thinking about what their situation is and then try to put myself in their shoes and then based on my experiences and my insights regarding that situation, it may inform my answer, but sometimes when I’m helping them, I’m really focused on asking the right questions. Rather than giving people answers, I’m focused on asking the right questions, because I think that when you ask the right questions, then the individual gets insights, and that insight leads to authentic answer for them. And so I think there are some coaches out there who take their experiences and then try to superimpose those experiences on the individual and say, “This worked for me, you should do exactly this,” and that’s not really the way I coach. My experiences help me understand an individual and where they’re coming from in a deeper way, especially as not only I have my experiences but I hear and have the experiences of others that I coach and that I connect with, all those stories are in my listening but I pull bits and pieces from them to help ask the right questions, not necessarily give answers for my coaching clients.

Erik Michielsen: That’s great. How are you learning to ask the right question?

Jullien Gordon: Pausing like this. Not trying to be right. And trusting that the individual, or my audience when I’m speaking to larger groups, have the answers within them, and that I’m just creating the space for them to actually explore what’s best for them. That’s really what it’s been for me. And like I said, sometimes my experiences and the stories that I hear from others help shape the question but I stay with questions rather than answers. A lot of people want answers, but I think when you give somebody a standard answer and they apply it, it may not work for them in the same way that it worked for you.

Jullien Gordon on Improving Career Workshop Experiences

In Chapter 14 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon answers "How Are You Learning to Facilitate More Effective Workshop Experiences?"  In his public speaking work facilitating career education workshops, Gordon shares how he has transitioned from providing his audience tools and answers to asking questions and allowing his audience to come up with authentic answers.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: How are you learning to facilitate more effective workshop experiences?

Jullien Gordon: Originally, when I started this work, it was all about giving people the answers, the 8 cylinders of success. Here, here’s my 8 cylinders of success. Try this on and use it for your life, implement it. And while 5 of the cylinders may resonate with you, for somebody else, it may be 3 cylinders, for somebody else it may be all 8. But I found by instead of giving answers and just by asking the right questions, I help the individuals in the audience actually come to their own authentic answers. And it’s their own authentic answers that are gonna stick with them throughout their life. I can give you my weight loss program but if it doesn’t align with who you are then your chances of actually completing it are going to be slim. But if you come up—if I ask you the right questions in terms of your eating patterns, how your body reacts and you come up with your own authentic answers for your diet, your exercise routines, et cetera. What kind of exercise is fun for you? I can’t just run around a track. I need a ball. I need to be playing basketball or I need to be playing soccer. I can’t exercise just by running around a track, that’s not fun, that’s not engaging for me. So, again, it’s been by asking the questions and trusting that the people know the answers. That’s what interviewing is all about, the assumption is that the answer is already within you. And if I can create a safe space and ask the right questions and bring it out, then you are creating your own plan and strategy for the next phase of your life.

Jullien Gordon on Using a Teaching Degree in a Business Career

In Chapter 15 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon answers "How Have You Used a Masters Degree in Education in Your Business Career?"  Earning a teaching degree at Stanford helps Gordon better understand how individuals learn and how educational systems facilitate learning.  This shapes how he teaches career education in his business work.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: How have you used your master’s degree in education in your business career?

Jullien Gordon: Well, at my core I’m a teacher, and one thing that I learned in terms of my master’s degree in education was how people learn. And so that’s been core to the way I develop my curriculum, the way I develop workshop experiences. It’s just been extremely valuable in that way. Ultimately I want to expand career education, I think it’s lacking in the same way that I think financial literacy is lacking in our K-12 education, in our college education, and our adult education. Why don’t people know how to do a budget? Why don’t people know how to manage the difference between assets and liabilities? Why don’t people know how to navigate their own career?

For me it’s the same thing and while I haven’t found a way to fully scale career education yet, so that people can manage their own careers and stop relying on their organization to manage their careers for them or their boss to manage their careers for them, I want to—ultimately I want to empower people to be able to navigate their careers on their own. And so that’s why that education at Stanford was so important to me because I understood how educational systems work, and how individuals learn, so I understood the ultimate infrastructure and I understood how people actually receive and retain information, and that shaped my teaching and my structuring of the work that I do.

Online Learning Limitations for Career Education - Jullien Gordon

In Chapter 16 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon answers "What are the Limitations of Using Online Learning Tools for Career Education?"  After creating several online learning programs for career planning, Gordon finds it is fundamental to have a live event or live interaction to build a successful career coaching or inspirational speaking experience.  Gordon references both Tony Robbins and Zig Ziglar as examples of motivational speakers who complement core live event work with online resources.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: What are the limitations of using online learning tools for career education?

Jullien Gordon: It’s been tough. I have created quite a few online programs to help people navigate their career in a more powerful way. And what I found is that one of my gifts is actually my presence and the listening in the safe space that I’m able to create. And when you think about Tony Robbins or Zig Ziglar, those guys—their businesses are built off of live events. While they may have audio programs and things of that nature, there’s something about being in a live space. I also believe in the wisdom of the crowds and you—in some cases, you can’t facilitate that online. But when I’m asking the right questions and I’m creating safe spaces for people to help each other, get clear on their answers, I just found that there is something unique that happens in a live event that can’t happen online. That’s really been difficult for me is to translate that safe environment online. What is safe about being online is that sometimes people feel like they can be anonymous, and that’s where they get safety online, but there’s just an energy that happens in a live space that I haven’t been able to translate online yet. I’ve seen a lot of people get inspired online, but I haven’t seen a life transform online. I have seen a life transform in my events. Like right there, in the moment. I haven’t seen that online before.

Jullien Gordon: Career Planning Advice for Millennial Professionals

In Chapter 17 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon "What Steps Have You Found Most Effective to Help Young Professionals Create Career Plans?"  When working with younger professionals - Gen Y and Millennials - on career planning, Gordon starts with a process to help clients get clear on life and career goals.  He lays out his 4-step process to create a dream life, attract a dream career, build a dream team and land your dream job and walks through why and how to do this.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: What steps have you found most effective to help young professionals create career plans?

Jullien Gordon: Good question. So whenever I’m talking to a young professional to help them think about their career plan, I like to break it down into four different steps. And the four steps are, one, creating your dream life. Next is attracting your dream career. Then building your dream team. Then landing your dream job. And of course the acronym for “dream” means to have your desired relationships employment and money. So it’s really about your life design, and the reason I start with creating your dream life first is because your life is bigger than your career, a lot of times people allow their career to define who they are, when in fact who we are should define what we do.

And so I start with your life first. What is your vision for your life? And then let’s find a career path that actually allows you to have the life that you want. And so we start with creating your dream life and that’s a visioning process, thinking about your perfect average day, or your perfect average week, and what you want your desired relationships to look like, and your relationships not just being with your significant other or your kids but your spiritual source, your parents, your friends, your colleagues, what do you want those relationships to look like? What do you want your employment to look like? How do you want to create value? What problems do you want to solve? How do you want to use your passion on a daily basis? And then money, what is enough? And do you have enough? And really getting clear on what that is.

And then from there, attracting your dream career is all about your professional and personal branding, that’s your résumé, your cover letter, your web presence, and your business cards, the way you network, et cetera. Building your dream team means of course your networks up, down, across and out. So not just—a lot of people have strong networks across in terms of their Facebook friends, but if you look in their cellphone, 95% of the people are in their age group, I found that the most powerful form of networking is networking up with other professionals, with peers, with mentors, with leaders in the community, et cetera. Those are the people who are on the other side of the door that you’re trying to get into. Your peers can get you to the door, but you want to know who’s on the other side of the door who – or who has the key.

And then of course, finally, landing your dream job is all about the interview process, and nailing your first 90 days at whatever new organization that you’re at. So that’s how I like to help people think about their career journey.

Jullien Gordon on Increasing Business Coaching Sales and Impact

In Chapter 18 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon "How Are Your Career Aspirations Changing as You Gain Experience?"  Gordon shares how he has learned that while his consumers are individuals but his customers are organizations.  As a result, Gordon shifts his relationship building and sales strategy away from social media - LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, etc. - and toward organizational sales and outreach.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: How are your career aspirations changing as you gain experience?

Jullien Gordon: One of the biggest insights that I’ve had this year is that while my consumer is individuals, my customer is actually large organizations, whether that’s companies, non-profit organizations, conferences, or colleges. And up until this point I’ve been trying to get the hearts and the minds of individuals through videos, through Facebook, through my writing, through LinkedIn, et cetera. And when in fact—when I think about the greatest impact that my work has had, it’s been through organizations, whether that’s a large organization like PWC bringing me in, or some school, or some non-profit to speak at a large conference, that’s where I’ve had access to the most individuals, and so my shift in energy in 2013 is going to be focused on how to build relationships with those key decision makers and less about social media, less about trying to get individuals, because I will get individuals once I get through them.

I’d rather have 10 relationships with people in those key decision positions than relationships with a thousand individuals. Because those 10 relationships are gonna give me access to a thousand individuals or more. And so that’s a big shift for me because—yeah, it’s just a big shift for me as I think about what it’s actually gonna take to grow the business, it’s not as sexy as… It’s not as sexy, I mean the sexy route is almost like being in a music band and you see your Facebook fan page likes go up and all of a sudden you have 50,000 likes. But how many of those 50,000 people are actually buying your CD? Right?

And so when you think about the business model behind my work, while I have books, and there’s a margin, a slim margin on a book where I’ve actually been able to spread the work and actually get compensated fairly for the work that I do, it’s been through organizations and so that’s gonna take me on a completely different path in 2013 and probably onward, is that I’m gonna access individuals through larger organizations. So my presence in social media, the videos that I do, while they’re nice and it’s nice to see people comment and things like that, that’s not what’s driving the business model which sustains me to continue to do the work that I’ve been called to do in the world, then that has to change. And that’s been a hard realization to accept.

Jullien Gordon on Innovating Human Capital Strategy

In Chapter 19 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon "What Has Your Corporate Work Taught You About Innovation Needs in Human Resources?"  In his human resources strategy work, uses an interviewing approach - called innerviewing - to better understand employee growth, development, and needs beyond the new hire onboarding stage.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: What has your corporate work taught you about innovation needs in human resources?

Jullien Gordon: Innovation has always been focused on the machine and the product, and how we deliver that service. And where I see that connecting with human resources, that innovation is really about how we manage, retain and grow our people now. Because everybody can replicate your technology now, they can get your product, dissect it, see what you did, and replicate that in a month now, right? So really the innovation, which can’t be replicated as easily, is your human capital. And so that’s where I’ve seen it connecting, and that the organizations that are committed to innovating around the way that they work with their human capital are the ones that are winning. You look at Zappos for example. You look at Southwest for example. All of these places are known for their great organizational culture and that’s why they have dominated their industries over the past few years.

Erik Michielsen: How do you start that conversation with the senior HR leader about making those changes to stay ahead of the curve?

Jullien Gordon: So the first question that I ask HR professionals is: Do you know who’s on your team? When you interviewed them, you got information about them in terms of their résumés, their past accomplishments, where they were educated, but now it’s six months in or a year in or 18 months in, and do you still know who that person is? We, as human beings, are evolving so quickly in this day and age that this person may have gotten married, like myself. They may have kids. And their original intention for coming to your organization may have changed. When they originally came to your organization, it may have been to pay off their student loans, it may have been for leadership opportunities and travel opportunities, then all of a sudden, life has occurred for them, and now their top priorities are no longer those three things, they’re actually mentorship, flexibility, and… certain types of projects, right? But if we never stop and ask those questions, then we are developing our human capital strategy based on who we hired 18 months ago, not who we have on our team today.

And so I help organizations close the gap between what their employees really want and expect from their employer, and their current human capital strategy. And I do that through my process called “innerviewing.” We all know what an interview is. That’s how you get the job. But innerviewing is a constant process of going back to your team and asking the right questions. What do they expect from work? Why are they even at this company? Because we don’t even ask that in the interview, we assume that we know the answer because they accepted the job offer. And then we’re also asking them, how do they define success? And is this company helping them achieve their definition of success? That’s the greatest employee retention strategy of all time, is to help them achieve their definition of success.

Now, a company may say, I do that by giving them a bonus, or higher pay, and then they can take that money and do what they want to create the life that they want outside of the work space, but I find that, for this generation, they don’t just want money, they also want to make meaning and because we spend so much time in our work environment, that has to be a space that’s fulfilling and engaging, and so when you ask somebody what’s their definition of success, and you ask them how their work actually fits in to that, you find that if you’re helping them achieve their definition of success, not just at work but in their life in general, then it’s gonna be harder for them to leave because it’s happening for them here through you and your organization.

And so, again, the question is, who’s on your team, or do you even know who’s on your team? Yeah, you hired them this long ago, but do you know who’s on your team right now? Do you know what their definition of success is? Do you know what their expectations are of work? And do you even know why they work beyond just money? And if you actually get answers to those three questions, I think you’ll find information that you can use to close the gap between what your employees really want and your human capital strategy.

And the reason I’m so important in doing this work is because oftentimes HR may send out a survey, and a survey already has bias in it based on who wrote the survey. And then some HR organizations are—or departments say that they’ve done focus groups. Well, I’ve found that anonymity is actually the best way to get the most authentic answers from employees, and so that’s where I go in to organizations. I actually go in, ask the high performers these core questions, take those insights and then help the organization close the gap between what their high performers that they want to retain really want and their human capital strategy.

Jullien Gordon on Improving Employee Engagement Practices

In Chapter 20 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon answers "How are You Helping Corporations Improve Employee Engagement Practices?"  Gordon notes how in his personal life, he learned you cannot get engaged (to be married) until you ask the question.  He applies this philosophy helping corporate clients understand their employees and their goals after the hiring decision.  This improves the onboarding process and raises employee engagement at work.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: How are you helping corporations improve employee engagement practices?

Jullien Gordon: Well, I just got engaged October of 2011, and you can’t get engaged until you ask the question. And so that’s why I always start with a question, right? Oftentimes, we get into organizations and we commit before we even know if we’re engaged, and employers have to know that for the first six months to a year, an employee is not necessarily committed, they’re really just feeling it out because they chose this because you recruited on campus or it was the most available thing to them, not necessarily it was the best thing for them yet.

So they’re still in an exploration phase. And so in order to get someone engaged, you have to ask them the right questions, and the right questions include: What are you passionate about? And how are you exercising that, or how can you bring that to what you do on a daily basis? What problems do you see for our customers, or our clients, or our colleagues, or the company in general that you may want to solve that is actually valuable? Who is it that you really serve within the context of the organization? And, again, how do you define success, personally and professionally?

Those are some of the right questions that employers need to ask their employees in order to understand who they are because the greatest depression that we have in this economic environment is the gap between who we are and what we do. That’s the greatest depression. And to the extent that we can get people to bring more of who they are to what they do, the more likely you’re gonna have higher engagement and presence in the workplace. And so that’s how I help employers actually navigate that space is by asking the right questions so that they can increase career presence ‘cause a lot of employers are actually paying full-time salaries for part-time presence, right? They have somebody who’s already quit but stayed, right? And so this is not necessarily because the person hates what they do, it may be because they hate how it’s being done, why they’re doing it, or who they’re doing it for.

Erik Michielsen: That’s a great point. And you also in our past interviews mentioned underemployment being such a big challenge in today’s job market. And one of the things we often forget is that to solve underemployment doesn’t mean you have to change jobs, sometimes you need to tweak the job you’re already in.

Jullien Gordon: Exactly. So a lot of times, especially for employees, they think that the first thing to do, when there’s a gap between who they are and what they do is to change what they do. But then they change what they do and no more of who they are is actually in that next thing and they still feel the same gap, so they just jumped from the frying pan to the fire, right? And so if we actually figure out how to bring more of who we are to what we do, then that gap is closed and you feel more present in the work that you do. There’s nothing wrong with being an investment banker but perhaps because of the reason you’re doing it, how you’re doing it, who you’re doing it for, if you take that same person and you put them in Kiva, and all of a sudden they’re doing it for small entrepreneurs in developing countries and they’re doing it for a social cause and they’re not doing it for money, all of a sudden that person feels fully alive yet they’re still doing the same thing, there’s no difference between someone who’s financing entrepreneurs at Kiva and a venture capitalist or investment banker, it’s just a different scale, a different type of customer and a different process in terms of how the work gets done.

And so oftentimes it’s not about changing what you do or changing the job, that may be the second step, first we need to ask ourselves, how can I bring more of who I am to what I do? Because there’s thousands of people who do exactly what you do. There’s thousands of lawyers. There’s thousands of bankers. There’s thousands of consultants. So you’re great at what you do, so are they. What makes you different is who you are and how you bring that into what you do. And so you have your position and you have your presence, and what a lot of people are lacking is they’re good at their position but they’re not bringing their presence or their extra who-am-I to what they do.

Jullien Gordon on Ways to Decrease Turnover and Retain Employees

In Chapter 21 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon answers "What Approaches Are You Taking to Help Organizations Better Retain Senior Management Talent?".  In his human capital strategy work, Gordon uses an interviewing process identify and close the gap between employee life goals and employer work expectations.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: What approaches are you taking to help corporations better retain senior management talent?

Jullien Gordon: So I’m actually going to these organizations and leading trainings where I ask key employees these core questions and this can be in a group space, or it can be in a one-on-one space. And then I take that data anonymously, and I look for patterns in terms of what the employees are really seeking for their lives in general and their expectations of their employer, and the reasons why they work, and I take that back to the employer to help them close the gap between what their employees want and expect and their current human capital strategy. And using those insights, we’re able to close that gap and increase retention and lower the turnover rates.

So that’s really what it is, it’s a simple practice but, again, it takes someone who can listen from a non-judgmental space, someone who can listen without any intent for the employee. So I go in to an employer and I speak with an employee, and I’m asking not because I’m even trying to retain you, I’m just asking out of pure curiosity about what your vision is for your life. And to the extent that I can help your employer help you achieve your vision for your life, the more likely it is that you will stay at this particular organization and be engaged.

Erik Michielsen: What have you found surprising about those interviews?

Jullien Gordon: First and foremost, there’s no standard answer, right? So when—especially when I ask the question around the definition of success, an employer might say more money is what’s gonna keep somebody, and they’ve tried that and they might get a little pop in performance for a month or two, and then the performance goes right back down to what it was and so when you really ask people what their definition of success is in the three ways that they measure it, you see all of these unique ways and I’ve done this in audiences of 4-500. And there are very few people who have identical answers. So that’s first and foremost, everybody has unique answers.

And then some of the answers that they have won’t cost the employer a dime to actually implement and support. For instance, if part of my definition of success is building strong relationships and the quality of my relationships, there are through affinity groups and things of that nature, an employer can actually offer that intentionally to their employees, not as a passive thing, but intentionally saying we have these spaces for people who are couples, people who are married with kids, people who are in this life stage and dealing with this, people who have cancer at our organization, whatever. People can find quality relationships in the context of their employer, so and companies aren’t just gonna be about technical things in getting things done and shipping. They are actually gonna be I think in the future more social environments, also like colleges where I am getting a lot of my life needs met through this space. Of course, from 8 to 5, I am working hard to move this organization and the clients from point A to point B, but there are wraparound services that don’t cost employers that much to—that will actually help the employees achieve their definition of success in not only their career but also in their life.

Lulu Chen on How to Help a Friend Find a New Job

In Chapter 6 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "How Has Your Network Helped You Find You Jobs?"  Chen notes it is especially about the little things where your friends can help you find new jobs.  This includes having your friends vouch for you as well as having them give you help updating your resume or writing a cover letter. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How has your network helped you find new jobs?

Lulu Chen: It’s all encompassing, you know, your friends can send you job postings or ideas, or tell you about things that they’ve heard of and opportunities which is I think huge, you know, and I think that a professional network or just a personal network does that, especially in such a big market in New York. But, I mean it’s the little things, really, you know, it’s like helping you proofread your cover letter, and making sure that your résumé looks good, and we all do it for each other. And from the technical small things to the fact that they will go and vouch for you, and really say to a friend or a colleague, or their boss, like, “Oh, you know, I’ve worked with this person before. I really think that they’re the best candidate for the job, and it might not be somebody who is obvious, but, you know, if you give this person that chance, she won’t let you down.”

How to Ask for the Job You Want

In Chapter 7 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "How Did You Get Hired as an Art Director Without Being a Traditional or Obvious Candidate?"  During an interview, Chen is asked "What do you really want to do?" and after answering not with stylist but rather with art director and creative director, she is given an opportunity to interview with a creative director.  Chen gets the art director job.  This experience teaches Chen to ask for the job she wants. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How did you get hired as an art director without being a traditional or obvious candidate?

Lulu Chen: Well, I did some art directing when I worked at Self Magazine, and, you know, you had to work on the styling and art directing, so that was really great experience for me, but recently, transitioning into more of an art directing role than a stylist role. This is a really funny story. I actually went in to an interview thinking of applying for a fulltime styling position, but it turned out that the company was so big, and that specific job was actually with an acquaintance friend of mine that we had worked together years ago, at Condé Nast for. But, you know, sitting in his office, he basically—we were both like, “This isn’t for you.” Like, “It’s a writing job. You can do it. You can do these pages. If you really want it, you know, I’ll think about it. But what do you really want to do?”

And in the last couple of years, I’ve been thinking about like, “Oh, you know, someday I’d really love to be a creative director. I’d love to do something a bit more bigger picture.” You know, just kind of growth and transitioning, and—I don’t know—setting up new challenges for myself, so, he kept pressing me, like, “What do you really wanna do?” Like, “What do you wanna do? What do you wanna do?” And I was like, “Oh, my God. I just want, you know, I wanna be an art director and a creative director one day.” And it just came out. And—but I had never said it out loud. I—you know, I kind of questioned some friends who were art directors and, you know, tried to kind of get their advice on, “Oh, what do you think?” or “How do I do it?” But I never really just put it out there, you know?

And sitting here in an interview, and I’m like, “I can’t believe I just said that.” But it is, it’s true. It’s really what I was hoping for. And, you know, his response was, “Fine. Okay.” And you’re like, “That’s it?” “Really, it’s that simple?” I mean, you know, I never thought—“Oh, you just keep asking. You just keep asking.” Or, you ask—You ask, you know, and sometimes, you know, someone will be like, “Fine. Try. Go for it”, you know, maybe— So I was really lucky, he—and I really appreciate that he gave me the opportunity, and he put me in touch with his creative director. And love this man, so, so—I don’ know—just inspirational. I think I had a 12-minute interview with the creative director. And he spoke, like 3 languages in that time. Picked up a phone call in French, said hi to me in Chinese, told me about all of operations, looked at my portfolio, showed me, like, some video that he had done, like, in 12 minutes. I mean, it was like the fastest talker I’ve ever met in my entire life, that type of thing. And you’re just like, “Whoa.” You know, and he said, “Okay.” He’s like, “We’re gonna give you this chance.”  

You know, maybe he didn’t say that literally, but he gave me the chance and I remember this so clearly, he said, “Do good and good things will happen, and, yeah.” And he’s like, “Just don’t F it up.” And he kind of put the fear of God in me, but at that moment, I was like, “Well, there’s no going back now, so, you know, that’s not an option. So you’re just gonna go for it”, you know. You know, so I did.

Art Director Lulu Chen on Learning to Work in Retail E-Commerce

In Chapter 8 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "What Does It Mean to Be an Art Director Working in Retail E-Commerce?"  In her online retail projects, Chen works to keep the photography simple yet useful to share the look, feel an shape of the clothes virtually with the consumer.  She shares examples how the lighting, photography and presentation can change based on the mood or presentation goals. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: What does it mean to be an art director working in retail e-commerce?

Lulu Chen: So, for the projects that I’ve worked on, we try and keep things simple so that it’s easy to view and we really try and do the clothes justice. You know, we try and present the shape, the silhouette. We try and show the texture, you know, we try and show the style, but—you know, there’s a lot of things that we’re trying to get across. But, really, it’s a selling shot. So we’re trying to show how many buttons it might have, you know, if it’s a boxier fit or a slim fit, or, you know, where it would—you know, the proportions of certain things, pockets—I mean all these details, really, it’s trying to get all of that across, so that it’s a fair representation for the consumer, because you’re not there, you’re not able to tangibly touch things, but, you know, so we try and show them.

So brand to brand, it’s different. And also there are some more editorial elements to certain retail e-commerce sites. Some have simpler backgrounds and they’re against gray or white. And it really just—the focus is on the clothing or the accessories. But sometimes, you know, with the more editorialized shots, it’s really about the mood.

How Art Director Lulu Chen Helps Brands Tell a Story to Customers

In Chapter 10 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "As an Art Director, How Do You Help Brands Tell Their Story?"  Chen notes how brands are in effect personalities and working on brands comes down to understanding the customer, the customer lifestyle, and putting a consistent, on-brand message in place to connect with them. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: As an art director, how do you help brands tell their story?

Lulu Chen: Well, it’s really important to stay consistent, and on brand. Which basically means that you’re always answering that same question, like, “Who is the customer?” “How does this fit into the customer’s life? Her needs, her—his needs, you know, their lifestyle, their budget, even, you know. And all of the things that the target audience represents.
Once you understand the brand, and once you understand what the goals are, I don’t think it’s hard to stay on brand. It’s like understanding a personality. 

Erik Michielsen: And that’s just something that you try to figure out through conversations as a team?

Lulu Chen: So much of it is something that you grew up with. You know, there are so many brands that you already know without thinking about it, or without having to break down what that brand is, you already know it, right? I mean, think about it, you know. I think it was in an interview and they said, “Do you know this brand?” And I said, “Yes, of course, I grew up with it.” You know, we used to go to the mall and we used to shop there. Yes, you know? Yeah, so even if you don’t think about it, you know, I think you’ve been exposed to brand identities your whole life. 

Lulu Chen on How to Work With Someone Who May Feel Misunderstood

In Chapter 15 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "How Are You Learning to Work More Effectively With Different Personality Types?'  Chen loves the entertainment and fun that come with working with different personality types.  She finds being understanding and patient with people that may act differently than she does opens the doors to positive working experiences.  She finds it important to give people a chance and get to know them. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How are you learning to work more effectively with different personality types?

Lulu Chen: I love working with different personality types, because it can be quite entertaining. It’s more fun, you know, you never have a boring day. I don’t know—you just go with it. I think I have a very high tolerance and I also think that a lot of times, a lot of people are misunderstood, and they might come across a certain way but, you know, you just have to give them a little bit of time and try and be understanding. I have a good friend who’s very talented and, you know, people just say, “Oh, he’s crazy,” you know. But he’s not really crazy, he just care so much and he’s so passionate so that sometimes, you know, his mood and his approach to things might come across misunderstood but he really is coming from a good place, and has the best heart.

So I think sometimes, you know, that doesn’t always come out the first time you meet somebody or work with somebody. You have to really give people a chance I think. 

Lulu Chen on What to Do When Life Does Not Work Out as Planned

In Chapter 16 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "How Have You Learned to Adapt When Things Have Not Worked Out as Planned?"  Chen notes why expectations are important, specifically how you set and re-set expectations as you live your life.  While planning is important, she notes it is not about keeping pace with family and friends' milestones and achievements.  Rather, it is about adapting to how your life goes. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: How have you learned to adapt when things haven’t worked out as planned?

Lulu Chen: Well, I think a lot of it has to do with expectations, you know, you adapt to maybe giving yourself a little bit more time, you know. Or a little more lead way with certain things. I wasn’t necessarily a planner but, you know, at some point, there are certain checkpoints in your life, certain big birthdays, you know, or watching your friends or your peers achieve certain things, or—you know, or have—start families or things, that you start to think about, you know, “Oh, oh, was I supposed to be there at a certain time, or was I supposed to earn this much at a certain point, or,” you know, just like all of these expectations, and you might disappoint—you might be disappointed but then you make new goals, and you make new expectations, and you adapt, you know?

You adapt to how your life goes, not how your life should’ve been, or what you think it should’ve been. So you roll with it. No, seriously, you roll with it. I mean, like, you know, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? If like, shit hits the fan, you gotta just—you know, you just brush yourself off and you pick up and you keep going.

Hattie Elliot on Changing How You Work to Be Happier at Your Job

In Chapter 1 of 19 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, female entrepreneur Hattie Grace Elliot answers "How Are Your Personal Priorities Changing as You Get Older?"  As she turns 30 years old, Elliot becomes more realistic about the importance of making a certain amount of money running her business.  Elliot shares how she became frustrated from not getting paid enough for the work she was putting into her business.  She steps back, reevaluates her model, and addresses the problem by altering her business plan.  Hattie Grace Elliot is the founder and CEO of The Grace List, a social networking company that creates destination events and experiences to forge lasting personal and professional connections across its young professional members. Elliot graduated from the University of Cape Town in South Africa, where she studied economics, philosophy, and politics.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How are your personal priorities changing as you get older?

Hattie Elliot: I think I’ve always been someone who finds just kind of personal happiness in, you know, again with what I do for a living, really creating and wielding a career path for myself that if I’m gonna work really hard, I really want to deduce pleasure from it. But as I get older, I, of course still, you know, being happy is important, but also I think I’ve kind of become much more realistic in terms of the monetary return that I expect. And I’ve become much more honest with myself about that. I’m just not I guess willing to put up with what I might’ve put up with 3 years ago or 4 years ago ‘cause now, it’s go time. Now is a time when, you know, I think it’s really important to reap the benefits and the fruits of all of the labor that I kind of structured and put in early on and continue to put in to my business.

Erik Michielsen: What do you think about that realism that’s coming with experience, what one example or two examples stand out in your mind in kind of shaping the direction you’re taking?

Hattie Elliot: It’s almost impossible to ever actually monetize the amount of work and the ridiculous, you know, MacGyver in you have to do from the time—from concept to execution. And, you know, till you tie that pretty bow around that event, like the amount of work that goes into it. So, you know, it’s definitely—I think I began to kind of get a little bit bitter and a little bit frustrated with the fact that I was putting so much effort into the business and that, you know, that certain things, like membership fees and certain aspects of my company were making money, but then I was constantly churning out events that were a ton of work and they weren’t as profitable, and so I kind of had to step back and really do one of the most difficult things to do which is, you know, really assess and reflect back on, you know, why I was feeling this way, and why I was, you know, feeling frustrated and dissatisfied. Which is very, you know, humbling, wonderful and terrifying task to do. And, you know, really reevaluate it and come up with a plan moving forward to address it, and to really MacGyver and fix the situation.