Lulu Chen on Learning Art Director Skills for Fashion Photo Shoots

In Chapter 12 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "What Has Taking Direction as a Stylist Taught You About Giving Direction as an Art Director?"  Working on-set as a fashion stylist, Chen gets to work with a variety of talented art directors and creative directors.  She learns how approach and prepare for jobs as well as how to motivate teams and stay organized in deadline-driven environments. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: What has taking direction as a stylist taught you about giving direction as an art director?

Lulu Chen: Well, I was lucky enough to work with a lot of different art directors. And if I had been an art director coming up the ranks, just as an art director, I think I would’ve been limited to how many different approaches and different people that I could’ve worked with, so I was very lucky and I worked with a lot of really talented art directors and creative directors. And what I learned from them is some really great ways on prepping jobs, how their approach was, how they communicate, and then not to sound negative but also what not to do. So, you know, all the things to do and strive for, and then some of the things that maybe, you know, I should try not to do.

So my take away from that is that organization is really helpful. And sometimes it’s hard because you’re wearing the creative hat, but you really have to get things done in a timely manner, you know, there’s always deadlines. And there’s a lot of money at stake, you know, photo shoots are expensive, you have to get certain things done in a day or two days, and it’s a lot of pressure, to see how other people handle that, to see how people communicate well—actually, how they also motivated and inspired their teams, was really nice to see. So I did learn a lot as a stylist. I was able to observe.

Erik Michielsen: And so now you’re on the other side of the fence.

Lulu Chen: Oh, definitely. I definitely try and keep all those things in mind, you know, all the things that worked for me, or that I really appreciated, and I try and do that as well. But it’s funny because a lot of people tell me that I’m so nice, and—which you’d think is a compliment but sometimes I am like, “Did they not think it’s genuine?” Because I like someone speaking to me in a certain way so I’m going to try and speak to everyone else in that tone, you know. But that doesn’t mean that I’m not gonna be able to get my job done, you know. But I think it’s always nicer to talk to people in a nice way, right? Yeah, it’s like I don’t have—I don’t wanna go there unless I really have to.

Lulu Chen on How Fashion Stylist Work Leads to Art Director Job

In Chapter 13 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "How is Your Graphic Design Education Relevant in What You Do as an Art Director?"  Chen talks about how a traditional art director job candidate has design and layout experience.  Chen talks about her unconventional path of working on sets as a stylist and how she came into her art director role. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How is your graphic design education relevant in what you do as an art director?

Lulu Chen: The traditional candidate for an art director is somebody who came up the ranks more focused on design and layout. And, you know, I came up the ranks being on set, you know, and logging in those hours, and I did have that advantage of being an art director at the magazine because you play, you know, you play dual roles, and I also had the background, so I was able to kind of bridge that.

Just the experience and all the different shoots that you’ve been on, you know, there has—you know, there’s been good days and there’s been bad days, there’s been all different kinds of talents, there’s been all different kinds of projects, there’s been all different kinds of art directors, you know, having seen that, and learned from it, you know, that was my bridge. But it took somebody really giving me the opportunity to show that I could do it, because I wasn’t a conventional candidate. And I will always be appreciative of those people who believed enough in me to give me that chance. 

Lulu Chen on Directing Models and Crew on a Fashion Photo Shoot

In Chapter 14 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "What Do You Do to Bring Out the Best in the Fashion Models and Crew You Direct on Set?"   As a photo art director, Chen tries to let the models and crew do their jobs and verbalize encouragement and feedback during the shoot.  She bridges the constructive criticism by being sure to communicate what she is trying to accomplish and to try to be helpful in the direction she gives. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: What do you do to bring out the best in the fashion models and crew you direct on set?

Lulu Chen: Well, I really try to let them do their own thing. I try and let them do their jobs, and I really—I try to encourage them. And so if things are going—if there’s a certain—if there’s a certain shot or a certain position or a certain thing that’s working, I definitely verbalize that and just, you know, I just keep giving encouragement, like, “Oh, that looks great.” And, you know, sometimes I’ll point out little things but, you know, ultimately I trust in the people that are working with me.

Erik Michielsen: How do you kind of bridge that, you know, constructive criticism and make sure that you’re providing the input you need to as a director without overstepping your grounds?

Lulu Chen: Well, I also—I’d like to add that I think it’s really important depending on what kind of project you’re working on to really let the team and the model know what it is that you’re doing, you know? Like to know the layout or if it’s a full page or what you’re trying to establish. Because they can’t do it unless they know. It’s like help me help you type of thing, so I definitely try and give them information without over saturating them with it.

And also, I’ll try and point out little things that they probably know but they’re not cognizant of, like some people have quirks, you know, so an example is, one of my models sometimes they do this with their hands, and the problem is, you know, if I don’t have enough frames without it, then I have this in a shot. And I know it’s not—I mean I couldn’t do it, you know, I probably have these strange quirks of my own, so I just try and watch out for it, I try not to point out anything too negative, you know, but I also try to be more constructive, so if there’s a couple of frames, I’ll just—that I really need like a safe shot or something really, really simple and straightforward, I’ll just say, “Oh, you know, can you just keep your hands like really straight,” or something. Just to cover it, you know, but I try not to make them feel self-conscious ‘cause I would never want to, and it’s something that you don’t even realize, I think, that you’re doing.

And also it’s a collaboration so sometimes people point out certain things to me and, you know, it’s also my job to point out, like, “Oh, you know, maybe that should change,” or, maybe we should fix something that they might not have seen right away.

Lulu Chen on How to Work With Someone Who May Feel Misunderstood

In Chapter 15 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "How Are You Learning to Work More Effectively With Different Personality Types?'  Chen loves the entertainment and fun that come with working with different personality types.  She finds being understanding and patient with people that may act differently than she does opens the doors to positive working experiences.  She finds it important to give people a chance and get to know them. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How are you learning to work more effectively with different personality types?

Lulu Chen: I love working with different personality types, because it can be quite entertaining. It’s more fun, you know, you never have a boring day. I don’t know—you just go with it. I think I have a very high tolerance and I also think that a lot of times, a lot of people are misunderstood, and they might come across a certain way but, you know, you just have to give them a little bit of time and try and be understanding. I have a good friend who’s very talented and, you know, people just say, “Oh, he’s crazy,” you know. But he’s not really crazy, he just care so much and he’s so passionate so that sometimes, you know, his mood and his approach to things might come across misunderstood but he really is coming from a good place, and has the best heart.

So I think sometimes, you know, that doesn’t always come out the first time you meet somebody or work with somebody. You have to really give people a chance I think. 

Lulu Chen on What to Do When Life Does Not Work Out as Planned

In Chapter 16 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "How Have You Learned to Adapt When Things Have Not Worked Out as Planned?"  Chen notes why expectations are important, specifically how you set and re-set expectations as you live your life.  While planning is important, she notes it is not about keeping pace with family and friends' milestones and achievements.  Rather, it is about adapting to how your life goes. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: How have you learned to adapt when things haven’t worked out as planned?

Lulu Chen: Well, I think a lot of it has to do with expectations, you know, you adapt to maybe giving yourself a little bit more time, you know. Or a little more lead way with certain things. I wasn’t necessarily a planner but, you know, at some point, there are certain checkpoints in your life, certain big birthdays, you know, or watching your friends or your peers achieve certain things, or—you know, or have—start families or things, that you start to think about, you know, “Oh, oh, was I supposed to be there at a certain time, or was I supposed to earn this much at a certain point, or,” you know, just like all of these expectations, and you might disappoint—you might be disappointed but then you make new goals, and you make new expectations, and you adapt, you know?

You adapt to how your life goes, not how your life should’ve been, or what you think it should’ve been. So you roll with it. No, seriously, you roll with it. I mean, like, you know, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? If like, shit hits the fan, you gotta just—you know, you just brush yourself off and you pick up and you keep going.

Hattie Elliot on What You Learn Producing a Reality TV Show Pilot

In Chapter 2 of 19 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, female entrepreneur Hattie Grace Elliot answers "What Happened With Your TV Show Pilot and What Were the Takeaways from the Experience?"  Elliot talks about what she learned producing a docusoap reality television series called "The Grace List" based on her life and her business.  The experience gives her a firsthand view of how television is made and how a show concept and characters can change after a network buys the show. 

Hattie Grace Elliot is the founder and CEO of The Grace List, a social networking company that creates destination events and experiences to forge lasting personal and professional connections across its young professional members. Elliot graduated from the University of Cape Town in South Africa, where she studied economics, philosophy, and politics.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: What happened with your TV show pilot and what were the takeaways from the experience?

Hattie Elliot:  Wowsers, that was an incredible whirlwind. So last year, I was producing a pilot for a TV show on my business called The Grace List. And it was really kind of a pseudo—they called it a docu-soap, it profiled my personal life and my search for love along with, you know, “the daters,” you know, members of The Grace List. And it was a great concept. It was an incredible, incredibly unbelievable, unbelievably frustrating, chaotic, ridiculous experience, but at the same time, really extraordinary, and like I wouldn’t change it for anything in the world, but I just now understand why Lindsay Lohan and all these celebrities are so dysfunctional, ‘cause I feel like I’ve got a very good head on my shoulders and I’ve worked very hard for years, but even I was like, wow, to keep—be level-headed in this industry, it’s tough. 

It was a huge undertaking. I was very, very proud of the initial pilot, which the network bought, they then decided to re-tweak it and reshoot it, and change the premise quite a bit, and cast the characters, and I was really devastated, to be honest, about the final product, I was absolutely—I really worked so hard and was very actively involved, but the final edit, I was just didn’t feel—I didn’t wanna put my name on. I wouldn’t. It was very upsetting especially after putting all that time in. Do I have regrets about doing it? Never. It’s like I would rather have loved and lost, you know, I would have rather had that whirlwind experience, I learned so much. I don’t regret it. 

But would I do a show again? I might with caution, but now I understand why reality shows are never around real businesses, you know? Because when you have a real company, it’s your baby, like I take great, great pride in this company that I built, and what I do, and I’m very protective of my friends and family, and so I’ve never just been willing to sell out, you know, for 5 minutes of fame, and, you know, crouch shot on the cover of Us Weekly or something, like, it’s just not my thing. 

So at this point, the project, the second round went actually to an offsite which is basically like where all the network execs meet and see if it’s gonna go to season, made it through the offsite, went to focus group testing, and I think about halfway through focus group testing was dropped, and it was a real blessing, actually. And there’s definitely some other show concepts in the works, but they’re very different. And they are concepts that I really believe in and that I feel like I can really do justice to now that I realize what goes into a show and what—what’s negotiable and what’s not negotiable, and what the actual process is, time-wise, commitment-wise and, you know, what you have authority to have edits on and stuff, so I’m excited. It really has—it was a—it really led to a lot of opportunity for me, a lot of opportunities, so—Yeah, it was a trip. Albeit an entertaining one.

Manager Advice on Creating Teachable Moments to Train Your Team

In Chapter 6 of 15 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, digital media executive Ken Rona answers "How Are You Becoming a Better Teacher?"  Rona talks about how he is learning to better communicate wisdom in more memorable ways.  For Rona, this means looking for teachable moments to use vivid stories, feedback, and timing to teach his young managers core job skills. 

Ken Rona is a Vice President at Turner Broadcasting, where he leads teams across advertising, sales, big data software development and business strategy.  Rona earned a BA and MA in Political Science from Stony Brook University and a PhD in Behavioral Economics from Duke University.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How are you becoming a better teacher?

Ken Rona: The part of it is you’ve got to think about how you communicate the wisdom that you have in a way that is easily remembered. And to tell stories, right? So what I wanna do is tell stories around why I’m doing something or what I was thinking about. What I’m trying to do is shift a little bit to say, here’s the punchy phrase that summarizes what I’m trying to teach you here. And also the things that I’m giving people feedback on, tends to be much more managerial. So the other day something happened where somebody said something in a meeting that probably, like one-on-one would’ve been perfectly appropriate, and instead, he said it in a large meeting and it wasn’t appropriate to do it in front of a more junior staff. And as he was saying it, the first thing as—I mean I knew where he was going, he said kind of what he meant in the first sentence and I said hold it, let’s talk about this afterwards. After the meeting, I asked him to come in to my office and I said, look, as someone at your level you can’t make those comments in front of junior staff. Like you have a responsibility now—Like, have you read the Steve Jobs book?

Erik Michielsen: Some of it.

Ken Rona: So there’s this part where he talks about the difference between responsibility between a janitor and a vice president. And the difference is that that janitor, if he can’t get in your office because he doesn’t have the key to dump your garbage, that’s reasonable. Not reasonable for a vice president to say that. Vice president’s got it. So I kind of gave him a very short version of that story I just said, look, you know, there’s—there comes times in your career where there’s a difference between responsibility and the things you can say, and it’s not gradual. It’s actually a step change. You get promoted to X, you’re in a role, your role is different, and there are totally different expectations. Now, one would like to think like it is a step change, you’re walking up the steps, so you need to kind of go through those steps in your career, and what I was saying to him was, look, you’re—you’ve just taken the next step, the stuff you said at the previous point, you can’t say that anymore. You got—your communication is different. 

So there’s kind of another piece around the teaching where I tried to make it very vivid for him. To say like I mean I told the story about the steps and—So another thing you can do even though as I say I like to tell stories, really what I’m trying to do I guess is make these teachable moments very vivid for them so they remember it. And I think, you know, for that particular incident, stopping him in the middle of the meeting, bringing him in to my office, telling him the Steve Jobs story, and then saying you know, this applies to you. I’m 100% sure he got the message. So I guess some of that is I guess another important part of the teaching is the reinforcement, with that particular case, I reinforced 4 times in like, you know, 15 minutes. But I think that’s how you create teachable moments.

Ken Rona on Making a Career Transition from Specialist to Generalist

In Chapter 7 of 15 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, digital media executive Ken Rona answers "What Do You Enjoy Most About What You Do?"  Rona talks about the rewarding elements of his progressive managerial responsibilities interfacing with C-level executives and his related career transition from more specialist-oriented job roles to more generalist-oriented ones. 

Ken Rona is a Vice President at Turner Broadcasting, where he leads teams across advertising sales, big data software development and business strategy.  Rona earned a BA and MA in Political Science from Stony Brook University and a PhD in Behavioral Economics from Duke University. 

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: What do you enjoy most about what you do?

Ken Rona: I notice a shift in my—in what I spend my time doing—in the last year. The team is functioning I think very effectively. Instead, my job has more evolved to—I have to communicate what the team does. Right? To people—to people outside the organization or even inside the division I’m in. To monitor what’s going on in the industry. To interface with our C-level officers.

So I think—I think that’s been a shift in the role and I found that very interesting. It’s no longer am I solely valued for my analytic skills or my product management, my analytic product management skills. Now my value is coming from how I communicate with our senior folk and other folks that are kind of in the industry.

And that’s been—That’s been very interesting. As I say it’s—it requires a bit of a shift in mentality. As I say, it’s like –It’s a seat change, or it’s a step change, in what I was doing. So I felt like this year in particular, my career has taken a—my job has shifted. That it’s—it still encompasses the old stuff but it has a much more of a component around communication.

Ken Rona: How to Delegate Responsibility and Empower Employees

In Chapter 8 of 15 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, digital media executive Ken Rona answers "What Has Been Most Challenging About Handing Off Responsibility to Others?"  Rona describes himself as an "aggressive delegator."  Learning from working at McKinsey management consulting, Rona carries an "assume benevolence" approach to giving trust to others and empowering employees. 

Ken Rona is a Vice President at Turner Broadcasting, where he leads teams across advertising sales, big data software development and business strategy.  Rona earned a BA and MA in Political Science from Stony Brook University and a PhD in Behavioral Economics from Duke University. 

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: What has been most challenging about handing off responsibility to others?

Ken Rona: I gotta say I am ruthless about it. I am ruthless. I do not find that challenging one bit. I assume that people are gonna do a good job of it. So I think there are people who manage folks who say, well, I don’t trust you so I’m going to—I’m gonna keep—I’m gonna keep this, right. Keep the task, I’m going to keep responsibility, I’m gonna manage it very closely. That’s not my style at all. I actually am aggressive. I describe it literally as I’m an aggressive delegator. And what I’ve found is that when you trust people, and that’s my MO, right, is that I trust people. My first reflex, right, in these situations is to trust that people are going to do the right thing. 

And that comes from McKinsey. It comes from—there was this notion of assumed benevolence. Assume that people are good. And that’s—don’t make up a twisted story of why they’re messing with you. Just assume like something happened or, you know, why didn’t they get back to me? Because their kid was sick. Right? Not because they’re trying to make you look bad. I found that to be true. So one of the things I do when I take over a team and I’d say that I’ve done this 3 or 4 times where I’ll take over a team and they maybe hadn’t been the most highest performing team, the first thing I do is just empower them. And in almost every case people don’t wanna disappoint. They appreciate the opportunity and, you know, it takes sometimes a little while for them to say, oh, you mean I don’t have to check with you? But I like that, I mean that—I like that I go “no, why would you? This is something you’re perfectly capable of making a decision on.” Part of my strategy for delegation is I only delegate things that people can fail on. So I try to be really careful about that. 

It’s something I learned from—Actually l learned this from Donald Trump, I learned this from watching The Apprentice. So the story on The Apprentice is when Donald Trump shows up, if you’re the project manager of the show, you know, of that day. You show up to his limo, you open the door, “Hello, Mr. Trump, welcome.” And you escort him to wherever he needs to be. That’s an important thing that needs to happen. You can’t delegate it, in that show. So what I’ve learned is that—that’s how I think about these things. There are some things that the CEO makes a request, you know, I’m paying a lot of attention. The chief research officer makes a request, I’m paying a lot of attention. Some parts of the company who are looking to make a big decision, really important decision for the company, I’m paying a lot of attention. What I want is for the staff to be in a place where if they fail, it’s safe. That I can kind of take the blame, or that I can remediate it. I can throw another person at it. I can take them away from—Like you know whatever I gotta do to help them fix it, that’s what I wanna be in a position to do. What I don’t want them to be in a position is that where something had to go to, you know, someone very senior or something very visible and it was a spectacular flame out and I wasn’t involved. If I’m involved, then it’s my responsibility. Oh, I’m sorry. If I’m involved, it’s my responsibility. I mean it’s my responsibility anyway, but like, I can get in front of it. 

So what I try to do is construct environments where it’s safe for them to fail and I actually have some people, I call them trusted hands, where there are some people who, you know, if I’m super busy, and I can’t do something that should be delegated, I will—or you know, that I’m a little uncomfortable about delegating, I will put—I will give it to one of these folks. And they will—I probably have 3 or 4 of them floating around, that can handle very complicated things that have very high emotional intelligence, very high, you know, IQ, and that I just trust that they’re gonna deal with things the right way and I of course make myself available, but I’m not worried about them—I try to like—other people, I’m willing to tolerate failure in a safe way because that helps them grow. 

Ken Rona on How Reflection Informs Manager Career Growth

In Chapter 9 of 15 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, digital media executive Ken Rona answers "What Role Has Reflection Played in Shaping Your Personal Growth?"  Rona refers to fundamental attribution error, which is where you take credit for good things and blame bad things on the external world.  Understanding this bias helps Rona reflect and make sense of challenges and his choices to overcome them.  Ken Rona is a Vice President at Turner Broadcasting, where he leads teams across advertising sales, big data software development and business strategy.  Rona earned a BA and MA in Political Science from Stony Brook University and a PhD in Behavioral Economics from Duke University. 

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: What role has reflection played in shaping your personal growth?

Ken Rona: You know, there’s that line about a self-reflected life is not worth living. I take some of that to heart. When I have a challenge, I try to think about what role I’ve played in creating it. Do you know what the fundamental attribution error is? 

Erik Michielsen: Tell me more about that.

Ken Rona: Sure. It’s a psychological phenomenon, right, that many people experience. And the notion is that when something good happens, it’s because I’m great.  Right? And when something bad happens, it’s because the world is against me. Right? Or you know, it’s your fault, basically. Right? So you blame good things on yourself—Or you take credit for good things, but for negative things, you attribute to the rest of the world. And that’s one where, you know, when I think about something, I really try to separate that out. I really try not to take too much credit for the good, nor try to put so much of the bad, some of the negative factors on the external world. I try to kind of have a much more balanced—I try to—because I know about this I’m biased. I try to think about how to have a really honest assessment about what my role in whatever the challenge was, was. And I found that helpful. 

And I actually—it’s actually my—almost my talking point for the year has been to tell people about this. Because I have been in a situation in business where it happened with a vendor, where they were blaming something on us that was—like their product failure. They’re like, well, you’re not using the product right. Look guys, it’s your product. Right? Like, you know, why would you not take ownership of your product, and like blaming your customer is not a good way to go, right? But—So I’d say that’s kind of the—how I think about reflection. I guess it’s an empirical question if I do it enough or not, it’s certainly it seems to be okay but I think that you have to—especially as you get more senior, as you get more senior, you really have to think carefully about what your role in things are. And to make sure that you’re having the appropriate amount of influence, how you’re doing that influencing, where you use more direct power, right? 

I used to be accused of being a bit -- my elbows were too sharp. My elbows are probably always gonna be too sharp for the level I’m at, but I think that my use of the elbows is much more surgical. Right? I’m not like whacking them around, I’m more like—I’m more just going… And it was funny, I have a staff member who works for me and he’s—I—Do you know this notion in a—like World of Warcraft in a multimassive, multiplaying—massively multiplayer role-playing game, you have roles, right? And one of the roles that people have is they’re called tanks, and a tank is basically like a character that is designed to take abuse, right? 

So that while everyone else is running around stealing the vorpal sword, you know, the enemy is beating on the tank. Right? He is that guy. People just beat on him and he just takes it and takes it and takes it. And he’s—has much more—much higher emotional intelligence than I have, right? His EQ is much higher. I think. Because he takes that stuff and he takes it with a lot of equanimity, right? He’s just like really cool about it. And somebody was taking advantage of him. And I said, dude, they’re taking advantage of you. He said, I know, what should I do? I said, you gotta throw the elbow, man. Like so there are times when like being the calm voice, right -- the tank, is not always the right thing, right? Sometimes you gotta go a little bit on the offensive. 

So I’ve tried to be more—I’ve tried to kind of take actually from him the “be cool,” right? And I’ve tried to be a little more tank-ish. But I’m much more surgical about my use of my elbows.

Ken Rona: How to Establish Trust When Building Relationships

In Chapter 10 of 15 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, digital media executive Ken Rona answers "How Do You Establish Trust When Building Relationships?"  Rona notes that trust is the currency of business, not money.  He learns to just give trust to his staff, noting if you give it, you get it.  He finds this something controllable. When there is no direct reporting relationship, either with people more senior or in different parts of the business, Rona tries to demonstrate trust to them. 

Ken Rona is a Vice President at Turner Broadcasting, where he leads teams across advertising sales, big data software development and business strategy.  Rona earned a BA and MA in Political Science from Stony Brook University and a PhD in Behavioral Economics from Duke University. 

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How do you establish trust when building relationships? 

Ken Rona: Well, with my staff, I just give it. There’s that Paul McCartney, John Lennon line— ‘the love you get is equal to the love you give’ or something—I mean it’s that kind of notion. I think that if you get it—if you give it, you get it. So but there are—that’s with your staff and that’s kind of more controllable. I think for folks who are let’s say more senior than me or in different parts of the business where I don’t have—there’s no direct reporting relationship, I think that one of the things that I do is I exhibit to them that I trust them. And I try to demonstrate to people that I think about them in the circle of trust. 

I was just talking to someone about this today, someone I had lunch with, to say in our first interview, when she was interviewing me, we got to talking about a personal issue for her and I gave her some advice that you probably wouldn’t give somebody that you had just met. And I was—she said—she was talking to me about this today, this was 2 years later. I said well I did that to say like, you know, I would expect that we would have a relationship that is, you know, trusting. And that I was gonna kind of talk to you about this stuff and once again, I guess in some ways I did the same thing I do with my staff. I gave her my trust. And I brought her in to my circle. And that’s what I try to do. 

Now having said that, some people are unresponsive to it. Some people don’t respond when you say something personal. Or when you be kind of a real person. They may not respond. And that tells you something about them. I think that tells you kind of more how you have to treat them. It’s a more buttoned down relationship. But you know what I tell people about trust is—once again I try to come up with a pithy line, trust is the currency of business. That is how business works. It’s not money. 

The way things happen is that if I trust you to do something and you trust me—that we all kind of trust each other that we’re all gonna do what we said we’re going to do, right, we’re gonna meet our commitments. Wall Street certainly thinks about it that way. So the thing you’re making commitments about is money or projects or whatever, but I think that the –what limited success I’ve had I think is because people trust me to do the right thing, they trust my judgment and I’ve tried to demonstrate it. 

So I think also, you know, you get a lot of benefits by reps. One of the things that I try to do for the staff is make sure that they don’t—when I’m delegating, they’re not there in a situation where they can fail, right? Part of that trust is when somebody gives me something that I have the judgment to know when it cannot fail. That if my boss asks me to do something that you know, I have to make a call. Is this something that I should—that he is willing to tolerate failure on, or that he’s not gonna be super happy about. And he said that I get it right, I build up more trust. I build up social capital. I think it was social capital. And in fact we built up enough social capital with the stuff we’re working on where the company has entrusted us with more strategically important things to do. And I think that’s how you know when you’re a success. That if you kind of feel that people—that your circle of trust gets bigger. I guess I’ll say that.

Ken Rona on How Aspirations Change as Responsibilities Grow

In Chapter 11 of 15 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, digital media executive Ken Rona answers "How Are Your Aspirations Changing as Your Responsibilities Grow?"  Professionally, Rona points to how he has established trust with his colleagues and bosses to make decisions and solve problems.  This leads Rona to think about ways he could handle larger senior management responsibilities.  However, personally, Rona sees his aspiration as staying in Atlanta and making sure his wife and children are stabled and grounded. 

Ken Rona is a Vice President at Turner Broadcasting, where he leads teams across advertising sales, big data software development and business strategy.  Rona earned a BA and MA in Political Science from Stony Brook University and a PhD in Behavioral Economics from Duke University. 

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How are your aspirations changing as your responsibilities grow?

Ken Rona: One of the things that I think I’ve shown is that I can be trusted. I can be trusted with staff. I can be trusted with decisions. I can be trusted with problems. As I’ve kind of proven that trust, I start to say, “well, you know what? Maybe I could be the CEO or COO of a company. Maybe not something the size of Turner, but certainly in the analytic space, I’m probably—“ So I kind of see that vision and I think that’s not something that I saw 3, 4, 5 years ago. But I think that I—I think that I could be a pretty effective, you know, senior C level person at a company that does what I do. That’s not to say a media company. I wouldn’t -- I’m wholly unqualified for that. But you know—or to be like the head of global analytics for something. Like I think that’s—I think that’s where I’m headed and I didn’t see—I didn’t really see that vision 5 years ago certainly. But now I think professionally I do. 

I think the question is, is that gonna be good for my wife and the family? I think that those kinds of jobs might be—Like I would be very interested in it but I’m certainly not interested in it enough to put my family at risk, you know? Or you know, and the family the—or should I say, I’m not interested enough to put the family dynamic at risk. It was quite difficult to get everyone to Atlanta and to a happy place; hopefully we’re there. The thought of trading—to uprooting people for any job right now I can’t really get my head around. So actually part of the aspirations, you know, when you talk about aspirations, I took it as professional aspiration, but I can tell you I have a personal aspiration to stay in Atlanta. 

I really—I do not think—and that my aspirations have really changed. I mean I—before I thought about moving I’d be perfectly happy myself to be move every 5 years. I think with the family, and the relative, the relative success that I’m enjoying I don’t--really don’t wanna move. I really want everyone to be stable and for my, you know, for my wife to be grounded in Atlanta

Ken Rona: What It Means to Be a Leader Working in Management

In Chapter 12 of 15 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, digital media executive Ken Rona answers "What Does It Mean to Be a Leader in What You Do?"  As a leader of a team, Rona sees his role as less about thought leadership and more about helping his team solve problems, develop their own staff, and identify where and where not to decide what projects to pursue. 

Ken Rona is a Vice President at Turner Broadcasting, where he leads teams across advertising sales, big data software development and business strategy.  Rona earned a BA and MA in Political Science from Stony Brook University and a PhD in Behavioral Economics from Duke University.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: What does it mean to be a leader in what you do?

Ken Rona: There are leaders in multiple elements of my job, right? There’s the leader of the teams. It’s my job to help them figure out what to work on. But my job isn’t really to be a thought leader in advanced statistics or operations research; it’s not my gig. My gig is more to help them solve prioritization problems, to solve conflict, to help them better develop their staff, to identify areas of the business where they might have impact—places that they can take ownership. I’ve also encouraged them on places where we’ve identified areas where we could take ownership; there are things where I have said we are not going to. 

So part of kind of leadership in the job, the product side of what we do is a good understanding of what to say no to. There’s this thing called multivariate testing that lets you, let’s say swap out different headlines and see which headlines are more attractive, that’s how you get these crazy headlines from Huffington Post, you know? See who’s vacationing at the Riviera. They didn’t write that, what they did was they wrote four different headlines and then saw which one led to most traffic, and that’s the one you’re seeing. So there was an opportunity to be more of an advocate at Turner for it and I said to the person who wanted to do this, like, you know, I don’t think that that is—I think we are fully engaged in the things we’re working on. And this is something that I agree would be good for Turner but what are we gonna give up? 

So I think part of what—part of what you have to do as a leader, you know, within my job is to say, what are we not going to do. So one of the things I really help the team do, I think is keep focus. 

And the other thing I do is I hold them accountable. So that’s another piece, right, where people have made commitments, and I try like any good manager, not leader but say—I try to say what day is something due. And if the thing isn’t due that day, “what’s up?” I ask, “What’s up?” And there’s always a reason, right, there’s always a reason. My direct reports don’t get to have excuses. They have to deliver. And what I tell them is if you don’t deliver, I mean the way I perceive that is, you know, either you are not—you know, you didn’t do a good job forecasting which I think you get like some passes on but at some point you should know that like some things always take longer than you think and you should be able to make that mental adjustment. But so, either you’ve done a bad job at forecasting, you need to get better at that, or you’re a liar. And that I think--but that’s my point about learning, I try to make it a little shocking so that they can—that they grab onto it. 

So I think part of that is you know the holding people accountable, and I say like you asked before about what happens in a big company, it’s a little harder to hold people strictly accountable in a big company, because you have to operate in a particular HR environment. But I think that’s an area where—and truthfully it’s an area where I would probably be more aggressive if I were in a smaller company. I’d have more freedom on it. I’d probably hold people even more accountable.

Ken Rona on What It Means to Be Productive at Work

In Chapter 13 of 15 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, digital media executive Ken Rona answers "How Do You Get Yourself into a Flow State of Productivity?"  Rona talks about what it means to be productive in his work and how it has changed as he has transitioned out of a developer and analyst role and into general management.  Part of this is understanding that "flow state" productivity is more relevant in individual contributor roles than in management roles. 

Ken Rona is a Vice President at Turner Broadcasting, where he leads teams across advertising sales, big data software development and business strategy.  Rona earned a BA and MA in Political Science from Stony Brook University and a PhD in Behavioral Economics from Duke University.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How do you get yourself into a flow state of productivity?

Ken Rona: I don’t really need to be. My job is different. I think if you’re a developer then you need to be able to get into that flow. That’s an individual contributor kind of question, right? Or somebody who does individual contributor work, you know, analytics or programming or art, right? And then, you know, if you’re managing people, you kind of have to go back and forth. That’s not really what I do. 

My career has kind of taken a different turn in that I’m not an analyst anymore. I don’t do that. I can use our tools. So one of the things I’ve tried to do is make it so that I understand how our analytic tools work and I can get into data if I need to, if I’m curious about something. Or I want to role model something, which I’ve done. 

But in terms of like producing deliverables, my deliverables are not so much pieces of paper anymore, my deliverables are discussions, and giving advice, and taking advice, and doing internal PR or internal marketing or—so that kind of—that kind of state is less relevant, it’s less relevant for me now that I have to be a good—I actually believe this, I really believe—I’m very ample about this. I believe that you should have focus. You shouldn’t work on too many things at once. And I don’t but I work on many things over the course of a day, but I’m pretty kind of unified—pretty focused on the thing I’m doing at that moment. But as I say the things that I do at that moment aren’t the kind of things that require the kind of extreme focus that I needed when I was a developer and analyst

Ken Rona on How to Be a More Effective Corporate Manager

In Chapter 14 of 15 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, digital media executive Ken Rona answers "How Are You Learning to Thrive in a Corporate Organizational Structure?"  Rona shares knowledge he has gained from management work experience in large corporate cultures.  He notes how being patient has been fundamental to improving managerial effectiveness and helping him achieve goals. 

Ken Rona is a Vice President at Turner Broadcasting, where he leads teams across advertising sales, big data software development and business strategy.  Rona earned a BA and MA in Political Science from Stony Brook University and a PhD in Behavioral Economics from Duke University.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How are you learning to thrive inside a corporate organizational structure?

Ken Rona: If I could give someone one piece of advice around that they were gonna go to a large company, a large kind of corporate, kind of very traditional--traditionally structured company, I would say the critical thing is patience. 

So I use this phrase “the market will clear.” Remember what I said about learning? I have like these little kind of small phrases that I like to use, that’s one of them. “The market will clear.” And by that I mean at some point the right thing will happen. And—because I think people when they’re in companies—when they are reliant on other people to do stuff. You know, you say, “Why are they not doing this? Like it is so obvious. They just need to do this thing and the world will be so much better.” 

One of two things happens, if you’re patient, either one, if—and you’re right. That person does it. So you know you were getting yourself nutty for no reason, that it was gonna happen. Or they don’t do it, you are right, they don’t do it, it becomes obvious that you are right, that person gets kind of either, you know, removed in some fashion or another—someone else comes in and they do it. So by that I mean the market, that’s what I mean when the market clears. If you wait the market, you know, the market will get to its equilibrium. The right thing will happen. 

Sometimes that waiting time can be very long. I’ve certainly seen—I have seen in the case of one of the companies I worked for, it was weird. It was wacky. And me and some of the people I worked with were just like we can’t believe this company is a success. And like they’ve gotta have a contraction, they’ve got—it’s just badly run. And I—you know, and I believed that, and I left. A year later I’m like—They’re still doing fine. I’m like, “How could that be? How could they still be doing well?” Another 6 months goes by, the stock falls 60%, the market cleared. So in my experience, if you are patient and you are trying to do the right thing—if you do the right thing and be patient, if you can. There are certainly times where you need urgency. But in general, my counsel is patience. Just be cool.

Mark Graham on What Gets Easier and What Gets Harder

In Chapter 5 of 17 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, digital media executive Mark Graham answers "What is Getting Easier and What is Getting Harder in Your Life?"  Graham notes that since his last Capture Your Flag interview, he was promoted from senior editor to managing editor.  With the promotion, Graham faces new responsibilities that are pushing him to break out of old habits.  Now three years into working at VH1, Graham finds he has a handle on how to work efficiently inside a large organization.  Mark Graham is currently a managing editor at VH1, an MTV Networks company. Previously Graham worked in editing and writing roles at New York Magazine and Gawker Media.  He graduated from the University of Michigan with a B.A. in English.  

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: What is getting easier and what is getting harder in your life?

Mark Graham: I’ll start with the harder part. I’ll take part B first. I’ve—since my last interview here, Capture Your Flag, this is Year 3. In the last year, I got a promotion. I went from being a senior editor at VH1 to a managing editor at VH1. So one of the challenges and things that’s getting harder in my life is now that I have more people reporting up through me, staying on top of things and being organized is something that’s -- really I’m trying to learn a lot about. I’ve always been sort of a last-minute Louie kind of a fellow, you know, I really appreciate the pressure of deadlines and things like that, and so consequently I tend to do lots of things sort of at the last minute when it’s the 11th hour and the heat is on, like Glenn Frey used to say. 

So I’m learning to try to get more organized in my life and my approach, and so consequently dealing with personal responsibilities and professional responsibilities, and managing a team of people, that’s something that I’m—it’s a new challenge in my life and something I’m looking to get better at. 

What’s getting easier is I’m at little, about 3 years into my job at VH1 right now, so I’ve got a better grasp on how our organization operates, how people interface within the organization, how different departments work together, how to get the most out of different groups and to be able to communicate efficiently, and by having some time and some experience in the organization, I feel like I’ve got a better sense of things and there’s not as much learning process involved, it’s more about honing and refining rather than learning all of the steps. 

Mark Graham on How Getting Promoted Evolves Career Aspirations

In Chapter 6 of 17 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, digital media executive Mark Graham answers "How Are Your Aspirations Changing as Your Responsibilities Grow?"   Graham recalls why he joined VH1 and the creative opportunities the big company offered.  As a managing editor, Graham now gets to manage larger creative teams across different business areas. 

Mark Graham is currently a managing editor at VH1, an MTV Networks company. Previously Graham worked in editing and writing roles at New York Magazine and Gawker Media.  He graduated from the University of Michigan with a B.A. in English.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How are your aspirations changing as your responsibilities grow?

Mark Graham: My aspirations continue to be high. One of the reasons that I went to VH1 a couple of years ago is that I saw it as a place where—you know, obviously, VH1 is part of Viacom which is a massive organization and a place where I could really grow and learn new things and try new things out. And so, professionally, I still have lots of aspirations to grow and continue to basically learn, develop more skill sets, and to be able to grow  professionally, to continue to do more things, to be able to put more of a—more of a creative stamp on projects that I do. 

I feel like I’m in a really good place right now professionally. I recently was promoted and because of that I’ve gained some new responsibilities, and right now I feel like I’m still sort of feeling my way out in this and learning to deal with a larger team of people who I’m responsible for, making sure that they’re satisfied and they feel like they’re growing in their lives, professionally speaking. That’s been a new challenge for me, and something that I’ve really, really enjoyed, and, you know, candidly I need to continue to work on as well. So right now I feel like I’m in a place where I’d like to spend a little bit of time in this particular role, learning how to deal more with people on my team, building my way up through the organization, and continuing to grow in that sort of a facet.

Mark Graham on Getting Promoted to Managing Editor

In Chapter 7 of 17 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, digital media executive Mark Graham "What Has It Meant for You to Get Promoted to Managing Editor at VH1?"  Graham talks about his recent promotion from senior editor and how his new role at the network ties into executing the network's digital strategy.  His VH1 role revolves around three pillars: 1) support VH1 television shows with online content; 2) bring pop culture levity to celebrity culture; 3) build out the VH1 music community. 

Mark Graham is currently a managing editor at VH1, an MTV Networks company. Previously Graham worked in editing and writing roles at New York Magazine and Gawker Media.  He graduated from the University of Michigan with a B.A. in English.  

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: What has it meant for you to get promoted to managing editor at VH1?

Mark Graham: It’s been a real challenge because I’m not narrowly focused on one specific area of entertainment coverage, I’m sort of spread out over 3 and helping our writers and teams of people who manage each of those sites really sort of laser in on coverage, things that people are talking about, ways to present content that are fun and interesting and sharable to people. I’ve held the managing editor title in different capacities before. I was a managing editor at a website called defamer.com where multiple writers reported in to me and I helped sort of set the editorial tone and framework. 

The cool thing about my new role as managing editor at VH1 is that it’s not just one particular channel that we’re covering—and by channel, I mean the channel of coverage not a channel on your television set. We have 3 primary what we call verticals that we’re—that I’m in charge of managing, one being our shows, so all of our content that appears on linear which is television, all of our shows, we support those digitally, whether that be, you know, recapping episodes, pulling out great information that happens in those episodes through animated gifs or things of that nature, video compilations, really sort of delving into that and helping make our readers feel like they’re actively engaged and building a community of people who are interested in our shows and talking about them on a deeper level other than just sort of passively watching them on TV. That’s one area that’s really exciting for me. 

Another one that we deal in is the celebrity-sphere, which is a very crowded marketplace. And what we’re trying to do with celebrities is really sort of leverage VH1’s strengths in terms of list making and bringing a real sort of fun sense of popular culture to celebrity coverage which sometimes sort of a stale feel, there’s lots of people who are covering celebrities they don’t always necessarily do it in a very interesting way. So we’re trying to bring some levity and fun into the celebrity-sphere. 

And the 3rd sort of area that I’m responsible for is music coverage. VH1 has a rich history in music, be that through original shows like VH1 Storytellers or Unplugged, or helping to launch new emerging artists through a franchise we have called You Oughta Know. You know, really helping to sort of build out our relationship with people particularly in the social space and getting to—getting them to interact with VH1 as a place that they know and they trust and brings them good recommendations and as for people who don’t necessarily have a lot of time in their lives to discover new music, we wanna help be a place to, you know, really bring that sort of communal experience back to music that is not happening as much because of the way people consume music these days through their iPods. There—you know, Top 40 radio is shrinking in terms of its relevance importance, we wanna be a voice that helps people discover new music. That’s been a real—it’s been a great challenge and a lot of fun, something that’s wholly different than my other experiences in the past.